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were buying the book, so the Gentle Path book is a book that grew in the Twelve Step community. It was used in Debtors Anonymous and Codependents Anonymous and Adult Children of Alcoholics; a wide variety of different fellowships were using it. As I reflect about it over the years, the fact is that once somebody starts this, they realize they probably would qualify for more than one fellowship, and the fact is that as you get further along in the process, you realize in therapy you have to do things that kind of transcend everything. The idea was to help people think about this. If you’re living this way, this discipline across these Twelve Steps, certain principles appear that become very, very important.…

      Carol: Like honesty, courage, and those kinds of principles.

      Dr. Carnes: So it’s called A Gentle Path through the 12 Principles. We started doing retreats around that and AFAR has been very instrumental in helping people start to think about that. The book has kind of been a springboard to a lot of thought across the fellowships. What I really hope happens with that is that … no disease entity ever got what it needed until people who have the problem stood up and said, “We need to do something.” It’s true of diabetes, cancer, multiple sclerosis, AIDS, and the fact is that people who have the problem and their families needed to stand up and do this.

      The fact is that addiction is a problem that still has so much shame attached to it that people who have the problem don’t stand up. Part of that is because there is confusion about really what is anonymity. The truth is that Alcoholics Anonymous would never have gotten off the ground if it wasn’t for the The Saturday Evening Post and Reader’s Digest and other places in which alcoholics spoke out about the power of what can happen in healing and recovery. The fact of the matter is we have this huge problem and we have people of all these different fellowships who have a common bond and can help in this issue. They need to become educated and be able to speak out, and my hope is as they get more familiar with the Principles, they would be people who would then be able to stand along with the research people and AFAR and the various people from both the science and the clinical communities and what have you. It needs to be a recovery-driven thing where recovery people are speaking up. My hope is that the book stimulates that kind of leadership and that kind of speaking out.

      Carol: So if people want to attend the Twelve Principles workshops, because I read that you can really join in at any point—you don’t have to start at the beginning or anything—you can contact us and begin at any time?

      Dr. Carnes: People are welcome; they can find out about that by going to the AFAR website or www.thetwelveprinciples.com has information about it.

      Carol: Got it. I so appreciate your time. I know that I get three very common questions, and one of them is, what recovery tools do you think are the most important to integrate when working on sexual recovery? Of course, my answer is “all of them.” You need a committee of people like a Twelve Step fellowship, and you need recovery tools and resources to utilize to help you manage this addiction. Sex addiction is different from other types of addiction.

      Dr. Carnes: I think the vital reason for that is that of all the things you can struggle with, sex has so much shame attached to it in our culture, and the fact is that the recovery can be very difficult. All addictions are difficult. It’s a little bit like what Viktor Frankl talked about with the people who made it through the concentration camps. He said it’s basically the people who are able to make the transformation are those where literally they were transforming suffering into meaning. What I think is that anybody who works with a disease like this, and you have the suffering, it brings you to this place where sooner or later you do the hard work, you face the hard things, because you realize that it matters. It matters to loved ones; it matters to having a different life; it matters to your kids; it just has to matter. That basically is in the realm of spirituality.

      Carol: And that goes beyond confirmation; that is in transformation. Is there one Step in the Twelve Step process that you feel is pivotal in recovery?

      Dr. Carnes: I think it’s hazardous to name one Step. People do the first Step and they sometimes think that’s all they have to do, and the truth is each Step brings you down into a deeper level. The truth is that the real core, deep places in the Twelve Steps are the realization that making the commitment to being a better human being is an ongoing process. The fact that you’re getting healthier doesn’t mean that you aren’t going to have challenges or further crises or further learnings. I’m going to be seventy-one in a few weeks, and the reality is I’m striving to work as hard on myself as I was going back to the beginning when I started. The reality is that it becomes a lifelong thing that you have to start really realizing. It is something that doesn’t end.

      Carol: You know I heard you say, and it’s certainly in your tapes, that you have to be able to call on your committee if you’re going to stay in recovery. You can’t do it by yourself. You can’t white-knuckle it. You need that support to create that transformation. So yeah, people can be white knuckling it, but that is not true recovery. Although it does seem that when clients figure out that when suffering has meaning, it becomes exciting. That’s what I want to share with the listeners: that it is about hope, strength, and recovery, and it’s about really giving back at the end once you get it. Dr. Carnes, you have given back and back and back. You’re an amazing individual.

      Dr. Carnes: I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately for a variety of reasons, but one thing is that there is a very interesting piece of federal research that was done on the Twelve Steps. And they found that one of the best predictors of success was not that you had sponsors, but the fact that you became a sponsor. I’ve had a chance to think about that, because when I teach I often create gifts for my students, but what I’ve always learned is that sometimes you teach about that which you need to work on yourself. I learn as much, whether it be in an educational setting or a therapy session, in many ways I learn more from the patient or student than the patient or the student does. I think the giving back thing was one of the secrets that Bill W. and Dr. Bob got; really they got that out of a letter that Carl Jung wrote about that in order for them to really make a difference, they had to be able to pass it on. I think in many ways that is one of the secrets—that it isn’t just that you got help, but that you also helped. It’s a basic act of gratitude. That gratitude becomes a way of reframing then what your whole life is about.

      Carol: Marci Shimoff, who wrote the book Happy for No Reason, interviewed 20,000 people to find the meaning in life. They found that if you stayed in the moment, if you had gratitude, and if you reframed so that you were always asking yourself, “What did I have to learn and what wisdom have I gained from whatever experience I’ve had?” that it kept you stable and kept you giving back. That book has been instrumental for me. You know I’m a coach, so I really believe in coaching people once they get out of the crisis, stabilize their life, and are searching for that meaning. So I’m glad to hear you say that you feel the same when it comes to reframing and looking at suffering, and realizing that it has a wonderful end game, and that there is transformation in giving back.

      Dr. Carnes: The number one resilience skill, I think, that a person can evolve is to keep that focus on your gratitude. It’s a real discipline to do that, but that gratitude list really makes a difference; there’s no doubt about it.

      Carol: That’s a perfect place for me to end. I just want to say I am so grateful that you found the number, that you got the right number, and that you came on the show.

      Dr. Carnes: We got there.

      Carol: Well Dr. Carnes, you are the master of sexual addiction recovery. I remember you telling our class that for so many years you were such a pioneer and that people stigmatized you for it. Truly I hope that you’re seeing full circle that we are a community that loves you, that appreciates you, and our listening audience was clamoring to have me get you on the show, so thank you so much. Lots of gratitude to you for being on the show, and we’re going to give back by creating that ebook and having our listeners buy it so they learn more from our guests, and they can

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